PETER IS THE ROCK: WINNIE IBE (CATHOLIC) VS DENNIS BUTIC (MCGI)

This blog is a defense piece against Winnie Ibe’s attack on Bro Eli Soriano. Here goes…

Winnie Bonilla Ibe said:

SORIANO’s lies eXposed in the Light, he is found LYING.

Here is SORIANO’s blog with my response:

Christ: The Rock of True Church, Not Peter

 4:11 AM  Belief , bible , Catholicism, Religion  24 Comments

Let us open our Bibles and consider again Matthew 16:18: 

MATTHEW 16:18 

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Baseline data here is that the words spoken by Christ comes from the Father. 

JOHN 12:49 

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

=========================

 Winnie said:

In here SORIANO is laying  his deception by twisting the natural reading of the verse. He uses John  12:49 to portray Jesus as mere gadget like a speaker.  We hold that John 12:49 is true however it is not what SORIANO want it to be which is to deny that the rock in MATTHEW  16:18 is Simon who is NAMED and IDENTIFIED by Jesus as CEPHAS/Rock/stone/PETER.

SORIANO said:

When in Matthew 16:18 Christ said, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” plus the fact that the words spoken by Christ comes from the Father, it must be understood that the real person speaking in the verse is the Father through the mouth of Christ. 

========================

 Winnie said:

NOTICE how he tries to deprived Jesus his personhood. He argues that   The one speaking IN MATTHEW 16:18 is actually the Father. To refute this twisted reasoning we need to read the verses around verse 18.

Let us read:

Matthew 16:13-17 KJV

[13] When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

=============

Verse 13 tells us that Jesus spoke IN FIRST PERSON and ASKED,

“Whom do men say that “I” the Son of man am”. This verse alone demonstrate that when Jesus spoke he HIMSELF made the statement. This is consistent to the whole chapter of MATTHEW 16 and in fact to the whole New Testament. He did not asked ,”who do you say the Father?

Let’s move on to the next verses:

 [14] And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. [15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

=====================

Jesus again used the first person “I” asking his apostles who they thought Jesus is. THE FATHER was NOT the one asking this very question “THROUGH THE MOUTH OF CHRIST” as argued by Soriano. The next verse further destroys Soriano’s deceptive argument.

Let us read:

[16] And Simon( Peter )answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

=======================

Simon GAVE THE RIGHT ANSWER And DID NOT SAY that it was actually God the Father who is speaking through Christ. 

Simon answered the QUESTION FROM JESUS” Who do you say that 

I AM?” With “Thou ART CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.” He did NOT SAID ” you are the Father speaking through Christ.

Next verse:

17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

======================

Again, Jesus made this statement NOT THE FATHER:

Jesus was the ONE who answered.

Moreover, he said” for flesh and blood hath  not revealed it unto thee, BUT MY FATHER IN HEAVEN”. Again to take this statement FROM Christ ascribing it to the Father would be absurd.  

Jesus TRULY SPOKE  and gave us the massages from the Father and with his AUTHORITY.  However not as a gadget speaker or a puppet of the Father.

Nowhere in the sacred scripture wherein a statement is expressed in the first person is actually someone’s statement. That is simply absurd and against the Bible principles.

How do we understand John 12:49?

Let’s us read in CONTEXT:

John 12:48-49 KJVS

[48] He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. [49] For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

This verse explains:

Luke 10:16 CEV

[16] My followers, whoever listens to you is listening to me. Anyone who says “No” to you is saying “No” to me. And anyone who says “No” to me is really saying “No” to the one who sent me.”

=====================

Let me ask SORIANO; who is the ” real speaker in John 12:48-49 and in Luke 10:16? Soriano failed to get the context of these verses and made his weird belief out of his misunderstanding of the text. 

We can also give and pass the message of God, however when we speak we COULD NOT CLAIM that IT IS NOT ACTUALLY US WHO ARE SPEAKING BUT THE FATHER. The Catholic Church received this authority from Jesus Christ which he received from the Father.( MATTHEW 28:19-20)

His “baseline” error is now exposed as a BIG LIE, unbiblical and also illogical. let’s turn on to his further lies.

  • DENNIS REBUTTAL:
  •  Noticeably, as I observed through all of Winnie’s rebuttal against Soriano, there is always that lagging inadequacy of his arguments to sustain an infallible stand. As always and constant, there are undeniable big holes that weakens any reputable argument he wanted to impress. Let us see. I wanted to ask: Did you sufficiently explained John 12:49-50 that say, i have not spoken of myself but the father gave me what to speak, as something not literal? In the course of Jesus speech when he spoke out of his personal words, is the reality of relaying the father’s words impossibly be inserted to say you are peter and upon this rock i’ll build my church? Is there no context to affirm that Matt 16:18 is in reality the father’s words through the mouth of Jesus? 
  • Clearly, Winnie lacked the propensity to have disproven Soriano’s claim that there are personal words of Jesus and there are relay-messages through Jesus mouth that were the father’s words as John 12:49-50 categorically have guaranteed Winnie either failed to explain or refuted. Therefore it stands, John 12:49-50 is about Jesus relaying the personal words of God as a ground to believe Matt 16:18 is about the father’s personal words much so as context supported it.
  • Firstly, the father is the master builder.

Hebrews 3:4

    [4]For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

    • Jesus role as always in the divine realm, is as a tool of God, an instrument whereas the credit is for God almighty such as in creation:

    Isaiah 44:24

    [24]Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    John 1:3

    [3]All things were made THROUGH him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    •  As you can see, Jesus was an instrument in creating everything yet the credit of being the creator is for God alone as it say: I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. And as it say, everything, that as implied includes the church were made THROUGH Jesus and as the credit was for God regarding creation logically, the credit is still for him in regards to constructing the church validating the Soriano concept, that the building of the church was by God therefore it is consistent and plausible that Matt 16:18 I will build my church is a direct credit for God as the speaker through Jesus mouth.
  • Much so that Paul expressed the reality of Jesus, the cornerstone foundation, as the foundation of the household of god–the church– and the apostles and prophets.
  • Ephesians 2:19-20

    [19]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (the church)

    [20]And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets–WHO IS–, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    SORIANO argues:

    “I say unto” involves a first person; “Thou art Peter,” a second person, and “And upon this rock” refers to a third person. It is obvious that if Peter is the rock the speaker should have said, “Upon you I will build my church.” 

    ========================

    Winnie said:

    SORIANO want to put meaning in each word and phrase to muddle the true meaning of the scripture.

    Let’s bring the verses as not to simply deceive people, shall we?

    Let us read:

    Matthew 16:17-19 KJVS

    [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

    =====================

    This verse Jesus DECLARED THAT SIMON IS BLESSED. Why? Because God the Father HIMSELF HAD CHOSEN to GIVE HIS REVELATION to Simon and NOT to anyone else. 

    Next verse:

    . [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    ======•==============

    As we had established, Jesus was the one speaking and NOT THE FATHER. Soriano is absurd as he teaches that Jesus is possessed by God the Father in these verses.

    • Dennis response:
    • He was not possessed, mind Winnie’s sarcasm, but as I have shown Jesus was relaying some personal message of God.

    Winnie said:

    The verse is CLEAR, Jesus said,  “AND I SAY UNTO THEE” 

    Jesus JUST SAID, “I say unto thee” this means that what he is about to say is about Simon and Jesus plan for him.

    • Dennis response:
    • “I say unto thee” is God’s personal words to Peter. Refer to my first response.

    Winnie said:

    What did Jesus DECLARED to Simon?

    ” thou art PETER, and upon this ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    After Jesus said that Simon is BLESSED, he GAVE THE NAME WHICH HE PROMISED him on their very first meeting. What is this name?

    John 1:42 KJVS

    [42] And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art SIMON the son of Jona: YOU SHALT BE CALLED CEPHAS, which is by interpretation, A stone.”

    Simon is NOW CALLED “CEPHAS/PETER/ROCK/Stone. 

    It should be noted that Jesus spoke Aramaic and the “KEPHAS” means ROCK/STONE. ARAMAIC Bible uses the SAME WORD and translated literally as EITHER ROCK OR STONE.

    Here is Lamsa translation:

    “I tell you also that you are a stone, and upon this stone I will build my church; and the doors of Sheol shall not shut in on it.”

    The CONTEXT IS CLEAR; Jesus IDENTIFIED SIMON as the STONE/ROCK and after HE identified and NAMED as the ROCK or STONE he went on to explain his purpose of this ROCK and that is to BUILD HIS CHURCH upon him/Peter. Thus, in this verse Jesus is the BUILDER.

    Next verse:

     [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. …”

    ==============

    Jesus made these statement NOT THE FATHER. To even think about it that The Father is talking to Jesus while he is using the first person pronoun is in fact insanity. Imagine that while HE is speaking to PETER saying : ” I will give you the keys”,” whatever you bind”, “whatever you loose”. YET he meant it for himself makes no sense. Moreover, Jesus is the King and NOT MERE STEWARD of his Kingdom, rather the King hands the Key of his kingdom to his steward much like King David to Eliakim (Isaiah 22:21-23). This is exactly what Jesus is promising to PETER who will lead the Church once Jesus ascended to heaven. And this is the papacy all about, it’s exercising authority from God for his kingdom on earth which is the Church. 

    • Dennis response: 
    • Obviously, winnie is immature regarding the knowledge of relay messages. Its like a commander saying, “tell them this: All pilots on board must be executed” thus the messenger relayed it verbatim. I have shown that credit to the building of the church is for God almighty making him the appropriate first person in Matt 16:18 bec if not when is John 12:49-50 applicable?

    JOHN 12:49 

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    • Regarding Eliakim, its inconsistent with Peter’s ordination as keeper of the keys of heaven. Eliakim replaced shebna, the treasurer, was peter, or the papacy taking the role of a treasurer? Quite improper, isn’t it. Much so, Peter has the keys of heaven. Eliakim differently has the key of the house of David. Awkwardly not parallel. Let’s read:

    Isaiah 22:15-16,20-22

    [15]Thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, Go, get thee unto this treasurer, even unto Shebna, which is over the house, and say,

      [16]What hast thou here? and whom hast thou here, that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock?

        [20]And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:

          [21]And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

            [22]And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

            • Therefore entrusting the key of the house of David in his hands, to open and shut, is in terms of being a treasurer. Jesus is a treasurer. He dispenses the treasury by saying, whatsoever you ask in my name I will do it, referring to our necessities. Therefore Eliakim is a metaphor for Jesus, who have the key of David as the book of revelation says.

            SORIANO further argues:

            “Upon this rock” is coherent with the declaration of Peter, “thou art the Christ.” 

            ==================

            Winnie said:

            SORIANO is simply CUTTING snippet of the verse and tries to splice it together to built his case. He try to avoid to read the whole text as the natural reading of it does not support his claim. He jumped from verse to verse to make a story.

            Jesus just said TO SIMON, I SAY UNTO THEE ” YOU ARE ROCK and UPON THIS ROCK” in the same verse and in the SAME SENTENCE. 

            • Dennis response:
            • The correct rendering should have been like this: I SAY UNTO THEE YOU ARE PETROS (A SMALL ROCK) AND UPON THIS PETRA (A BIG ROCK). You can easily notice the size difference as petros in Greek is a piece of rock while petra is a mass of rock.

            • Coincidentally? Jesus is a petra.
            • 1 Peter 2:7-8
            • [7]Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
            • [8]And a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

            Soriano said:

            Notice the use of the demonstrative pronoun, “this rock.” “Upon this rock” clearly refers to Upon Christ which rock Jesus is. In all senses of grammar, common understanding, and logic, Peter cannot be the rock, the foundation of the true church. 

            =====================

            Winnie said:

            We  NOTICED how you are good in making a story out of nowhere to tell us a BIG LIE. The use of demonstrative pronoun  does NOT in anyway deny that Simon is the ROCK/PETER.  In FACT, the use of DEMONSTRATIVE PRONOUN IS ONLY FOR THINGS BUT CAN BE USE FOR PEOPLE  when the person is ALREADY IDENTIFIED.

            In this case JESUS IDENTIFIED SIMON AS THE ROCK.

            Soriano’s CLAIMS are actually CONTRARY TO GRAMMAR, COMMON SENSE, LANGUAGE STUDIES, reason and logic. In fact it’s CRAZY.

            Why ON EARTH  Jesus would change Simon’s name to PETER/STONE/Rock/ CEPHAS in that same verse when Jesus said ” upon this rock I will built my church?  

            • Dennis response:
            • Winnie’s grasp at logic is kindergarten to have asked: Why ON EARTH  Jesus would change Simon’s name to PETER/STONE/Rock/ CEPHAS in that same verse when Jesus said ” upon this rock I will built my church?  
            • He has not the tendency to have thought of possibilities like: to show that peter is not the foundation of the church as his being cephas or rock is as petros (small rock) while the foundation is petra, a big rock.

            Soriano said:

            Never could a corruptible human being be! But notice the belief of the Roman Catholic Church as contained in their Modern Catholic Dictionary describing Peter as their first Pope, referring to him as “the rock.”

            =======================

            Winnie said:

            If God chose human and yes a corruptible man he is, what is wrong with that? If GOD IS WITH HIM CERTAINLY HE WILL REMAIN. We trust God more than anyone, even more than ourselves.  

            • Dennis response:
            • Wrong Winnie. A substandard corruptible foundation? God must have been a poor master builder.

            Soriano said:

            Grammatically speaking, if Peter were the rock, the speaker should have said, “and I say unto thee that thou art Peter and upon you I will build my church.” 

            =======================

            Winnie said:

            Let us quote:

            Matthew 16:18 KJVS

            [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

            Is the Father the one speaking here? Then it would means that Jesus is THE ONE REFERRED AS PETER. If Jesus is the one called PETER then SORIANO’s third person “upon this rock” to refer to Jesus just COLLAPSED. 

            His  above argument makes no sense. Jesus IS VERY CLEAR. ” you are rock, and upon this rock I will built my church”. Jesus JUST IDENTIFIED THE ROCK WHO IS SIMON PETER/ROCK, to introduce another rock would make Jesus a lousy speaker. 

            • Dennis response:
            • Nope Winnie. Considering the Greek text and definition, I presented above, the most correct word for word translation should have been: YOU ARE SMALL ROCK AND UPON THIS BIG ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH. The size difference on strict sense, disqualifies Peter as the rock foundation.

            Soriano said:

            Why did not Christ say, “I say unto thee that thou art Peter and upon me I will build my church?” Logical, because He is not the speaker. The real speaker is the Father that is the first person. The second person is Peter, and the third person is the rock, which is Christ, which he (Peter) acknowledged as the “Son of the living God.” 

            ===================

            Winnie said:

            Jesus is ACTUALLY THE SPEAKER HERE. In verse 17 says:

            Matthew 16:17 KJVS

            [17] And JESUS answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven.”

            Jesus was the one who actually said verses 13-19 and to deny that fact is to deny that Jesus is a person.

            • Dennis response:
            • Answered. Refer to my first response.

            SORIANO SAID:

            Logically speaking, if Peter were the rock, the speaker should have said, “and I say unto thee that thou art Peter and upon you I will build my church.” 

            ====================

            Winnie said:

            REMEMBER ” demonstrative pronoun”?  Again, Jesus is clear in his statement. The problem is SORIANO’s failure to understand the context. The worse is he pretend to know and that is the serious defect of his personality.

            He further said:

            Using common sense to understand this phrase, “and I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,” we see that somebody is talking to Peter, represented by X. X talks to Peter. 

            “And upon this rock” is Y, the rock. 

            Speaker X mentioning Y to Peter means X is not Peter. 

            Peter is not Y and Y is not X. Common sense tells us that Peter is the clue to knowing who is Y and who is X. 

            X, the speaker, is the Father. X is the first person, “I.” 

            Meanwhile, Peter is the second person, “unto thee” and is different from “and upon this rock,” a third person (Y). 

            I, (X) will build my church upon Y (the rock). But Y is not Peter. Peter is not the rock. 

            ==========================

            Winnie said:

            To say that PETER IS NOT ROCK is not logical at all. Koine GREEK “PETROS” or Petra mean the same thing which means rock.

            • Dennis response:
            • Wrong. Petros is small rock. Petra is big rock. Refer to the screenshot dictionary above.

            Soriano said:
            Why could not the rock be Peter? To be sure, we must look for the exact person represented by Y that is the rock. 
            Y was revealed by X to Peter as in, “flesh and blood did not reveal this unto you but my Father (X) in heaven.” What was revealed this time was, “thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 
            This secret revealed by the Father (X) to Peter was that Christ, the Son of the living God, is the rock upon which “I (X, the Father) will build my church.” Take note that even Peter understood this. Why shouldn’t the Roman Catholic Church? 

            •=====================

            Winnie said:
            Where is the in the text? Soriano is adding his opinion to the verse. There is nothing in this text which states that Jesus is the ROCK. 

            =====================•===

            SORIANO’s  weak arguments from MISUSING Scriptures:
            Let us for the meantime set aside the logical, the grammatical, and the sensical analysis of the verse. Let us now be biblical! 
            Before taking the human form, the coming of the Son of God was foretold by the Father that a prophet “I will raise from among your brethren LIKE unto thee (Moses), and I will put my words into His mouth”. 

            DEUTERONOMY 18:18 

            I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
            This prophet whom God will raise from the Israelites is the Lord Jesus Christ. 
            THE ACTS 3:22, 20 

            22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 

            20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

            =======================

            Winnie said:
            Yes, the prophecy is ABOUT JESUS CHRIST. He is LIKE MOSES who speaks IN BEHALF OF GOD. MOSES spoke to the people of God the message of God, but when he spoke it was him talking NOT GOD TALKING.
            Soriano  said further:
            When preaching in the flesh, in the form of a man, the Son said, “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me,” exactly in coherence with the prophecy, “I will put my words into his mouth.” 

            JOHN 7:16 

            Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
            The rightful and biblical builder of the true church is the Father. 

            ========================

            Winnie said:
            Anything that we build or do for God can be ascribe to the Father. If I help others who are in need and as Jesus said to the Father ,” thy will be done”. Thus, God can be said that He helps that man in-need through me.  
            “My DOCTRINE IS NOT MINE BUT HIS THAT SENT ME”
             Is this statement from God the Father himself? Soriano simply DON’T know what he is talking about. 
            When Jesus said,” I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH” again it was Jesus SPEAKING, hence Jesus is the one who BUILT IT in and with the authority of the Father.

            Soriano quoted:


            HEBREWS 3:4 

            For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
            The words uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ coming out of His mouth was, “I say unto thee, thou art Peter and upon this rock, “I will build my church,” is genuinely the words of the Father, the builder of everything that exists. 

            ========================
            The verse IS TRUE but not SORIANO’s wrong interpretation. He keeps REPEATING his error hoping that it will eventually sink in. He is doing the art of “indoctrination”. Lies repeated many times will soon be accepted as “truth”.
            He argued: 
            And who is the foundation intended by the builder, the Father, to be the foundation of the true church? 

            I CORINTHIANS 3:11 

            For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

            •=••=====================
            Again, the verse is true but NOT SORIANO’s teachings. Jesus is INDEED THE FOUNDATION of our salvation and our  Christian virtues solely on him. IN SHORT, Our works must be rooted and founded in Christ.
            Please read:

            1 Corinthians 3:10-13 NASB

            [10] According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise MASTER BUILDER I  LAID A FOUNDATION, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. [11] For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man builds on the FOUNDATION with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, [13] EACH MAN’s WORK will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the e quality of EACH MAN’s WORK.”

            =========================

            ST. Paul claims that “he laid a foundation in the verse above. Notice that God can be argued that He laid the FOUNDATION and BOTH are true yet in different context as being foundation and a builder.

            • Dennis response: 
            • Let’s quote KJV:
            • [10]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
            • [11]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
            •  Yes. Paul is a wise master builder but not in equal essence of how God is a master builder. Paul is a master builder by laying down the rock foundation Jesus for the building of the church upon it. He is the physical builder while God is the supreme master builder yet as always the credit of building is for God as expounded above.

            Soriano said:

            It is Christ – and not a mere human being like Peter! The builder, the Father, laid the foundation of everything that He created. He laid the foundation of the earth and the universe! 

            JOB 38:4 

            Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
            HEBREWS 11:3 

            Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
            The Father who laid the foundation of the universe and of the earth is undoubtedly the same person who laid the foundation of the true church, that is Christ. That church to be built upon the foundation Christ is composed of the apostles (including Peter), the prophets, teachers, and the like. 

            =========================

            Winnie said:
            Soriano is using multiple text to confuse people to believe his lies. He is claiming that WHEN THE WORD   “laid” IT MUST BE EXCLUSIVELY true to The Father. We can demonstrate his fallacy by quoting 1Cor 3:10.
            1 Corinthians 3:10 KJV

            [10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

            ===•====================

            Who is the master builder? Who laid the foundation in this verse? St. Paul is clear, He points himself as the master builder and the one who laid the foundation (NOT ALWAYS THE FATHER as SORIANO teaches). In short, God can be said a builder but it is also true to Jesus and to St. Paul and to the other apostles.

            • Dennis said:
            • Yes Paul is a master builder but not in the same essence as God is. Paul is a fallible and limited master builder. He cannot move the heart of men to join the church as tantamount of being built upon the foundation whereas God does through the process called calling.Therefore, the real master builder is God and paul his instrument. Therefore, their being master builder in essence have huge difference. 
            • Winnie said:  Paul is clear, He points himself as the master builder and the one who laid the foundation (NOT ALWAYS THE FATHER as SORIANO teaches). 
            • NOT ALWAYS THE FATHER?
            • It is as it say: he that built all things is God, as said in the verse above.


            SORIANO QUOTED:

            I CORINTHIANS 12:28 

            And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
            As it is impossible for Peter to be the foundation, obviously because he is part of those that were built upon Christ, it is equally impossible for the Roman Catholic Church to be the church built by the Father! That is biblically speaking! 

            EPHESIANS 2:20 

            And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
            ==================

            Winnie said:
            The apostles and the prophets were collectively called FOUNDATION while Jesus is THE CHIEF CORNER STONE.  Structurally speaking we know that foundation stone is different from the corner stone (who is Jesus Christ.) therefore, we know that from the Bible ” foundation” can be referred to the apostles and also to Jesus, yet in different context. Jesus However is the cornerstone consistently.
            Soriano argued:
            Note in the verse above that the Apostles and the Prophets were built upon the foundation. Peter is one of the apostles built upon the foundation. Logically, grammatically, biblically, and sensibly speaking, Peter is not the rock, nor the foundation of the true church! But the Roman Catholic Church in her misinterpretation because of her ignorance about the Scriptures refuses to accept the foundation rock of the true church – Christ! The builder of the Catholic Church is not the Father! 

            THE ACTS 4:11-12 (RSV) 

            11 This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. 

            12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

            =========================

            Winnie said:
            The Scripture is CLEAR, it says, ” built on the foundation of

            The apostles and of the prophets.  Which one is built on the apostles? IT IS THE CHURCH. The apostles are collectively called the FOUNDATION and Jesus is the CHIEF CORNER STONE.
            To see clearly we need to read the preceding verse:

            Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV

            [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of THE HOUSEHOLD God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;”
            Thus, it was NOT THE APOSTLES WHO WERE FOUNDED ON JESUS CHRIST in this verse but the Church.

            • Dennis said:
            • Look at the grammatical dysfunction of Winnie’s argument to say, the apostles are foundation. What it said was: BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS (WHO IS) JESUS CHRIST, THE CORNERSTONE. Clearly, Jesus is the foundation of the apostles, not Peter.

            Soriano said:

            The insistence of the Catholic Church that Peter is the foundation rock of their church is their utter rejection of the foundation laid by God himself – Christ. A human being like Peter cannot be the foundation of truth, for all men are prone to lie. How can somebody prone to telling a lie be the foundation of the truth? Peter lied, even denying his Lord! 

            ======================= 

            Winnie said:

             We  CAN SENSE WHO IS LYING AND THAT IS YOU!!! The Catholic Church never said that St. Peter is the FOUNDATION OF TRUTH. It was Jesus who revealed to us that God the Father had chosen PETER to REVEAL HIS “truth”, NOT THAT HE HIMSELF is the Truth. If God had chosen a person as weak as PETER that the STRENGTH of God be revealed, who are we to protest His will?  Soriano does in fact DISAGREE WITH THE CHOICE AND THE WILL OF GOD.

            Soriano said:


            MATTHEW 26:34 

            Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
            We are not condemning Peter, we understand him as a human being. 

            THE ROMANS 3:4 

            God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
            Only God cannot lie and it is impossible for Him to lie. 

            • Dennis said:
            • By this we know, the catholic church is founded upon a liar.

            Winnie said:

            Yes, The scripture is true and SORIANO should readily admit that HE HIMSELF IS A LIAR.
            God willed that PETER will not die yet as God had plan for him.
            Let us read:

            Luke 22:32-34 KJV

            [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. [33] And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. [34] And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.”

            __________________________

            Jesus had planned for PETER and that is to STRENGTHEN his brother apostles after his resurrection. PETER would lead the church in spreading the gospel of Christ.

             

            Soriano said:


            TITUS 1:2 

            In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
            HEBREWS 6:18 

            That by two immutable things, in whichit was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
            Christ, “the church of the living God,” is the pillar and foundation of truth! 

            • Dennis said:
            • This is a clear proof that the church is not founded on man who is a liar bec truth is founded upon it. Where there is truth, there is no lie disproving Peter, a liar, as rock foundation. 


            I TIMOTHY 3:15-16 

            15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 

            16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
            Christ is called as “the house” or “the church of the living God”! Note that Verse 16 says, “great is the mystery of godliness: 1) Manifested in the flesh, 2) Justified in the Spirit, 3) Seen of angels, 4) Preached unto the Gentiles, 5) Believed on in the world, 6) Received up into glory. (Christ is the subject of this enumeration). 

            Christ is the God that was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. The person subject of this detailed enumeration (of the Apostle Paul) is Christ, the pillar and foundation of the truth. Christ can be called “the house of God” for the Father dwells in Him. 

            ====•==•••==============
            Winnie said:
            Soriano is confabulating ideas. 

            Let me deal with his points.
            1. God cannot lie. TRUE and I agree.
            2. Christ is identified as the Church.

            Yes, but NOT AS SORIANO TEACHES.  1Tim 3:15 However does not teach that the literal place WHERE Timothy is to behave IS NOT IN JESUS LITERALLY. How could Timothy behave inside JESUS? It’s all lies and or lacking of comprehension.
            Christ is NOT THE HOUSE and never called as such. He however is the head of the Church and we are his body.  The Church is the FOUNDATION AND PILLAR OF TRUTH simply because ITS THE SURE WAY TO KNOW THAT TRUTH ABOUT GOD AND His doctrines. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, ( John16:13) headed and accompanied 

            Jesus until the end of time in the Church mission teaching all nations.

            Soriano quoted:


            JOHN 14:10 

            Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

            •====================

            Winnie said:
            Soriano lacking in comprehension is apparent.  Jesus is in  the Father and the Father is in Him. This tells us that SORIANO’s argument makes NO SENSE.  Is Jesus ALSO DWELLS in the Father and He is “a house “for Jesus?  The Verse demonstrate the mystery of UNITY of the Father and the Son and NOT POSSESSING (sumanib) ONE ANOTHER.

            Soriano said:

            More to come. 
            Is it the existence of the Catholic Church for almost 2,000 years that proves that it is “the true church?” That is not correct! 
            Judaism is older than Catholicism! Hinduism has also endured the test of time being older than the Catholic Church! Orthodox churches are as old as the Catholic Church; will it mean that these are also true churches? I disagree! 
            Here’s a comparison of the start of religions older than that of the Roman Catholic Church (Ref: patheos.com) 
            Meanwhile, when did the Roman Catholic Church begin? First century AD, if they are correct – but not earlier than that. 
            The reference used here is The Catholic News Service in “Vatican congregation reaffirms truth, oneness of the Catholic Church.” 
            Let us learn more in the succeeding issues of my blog. 
            Truly yours, 

            Brother Eli


            ==•••====••===========

            Winnie said:
            Soriano is making fallacy all the way. The Church never claimed that it’s the true Church of God because it is the most ancient. It can be argued that it’s the ONLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH that existed from the first century and still exist up to our time. It’s the fulfilment of the Old Covenant of God with the Israelites through Christ Jesus.

            • Dennis said:
            • Lastly, let’s recap: why is Jesus the rock foundation and not Peter? Firstly, Peter is a liar in action or words as god said, all man a liar as evident when Paul rebuked him for some lie in form of action wherein he declined association with gentiles. Its a lie in action. Whereas truth is founded upon the church thus truth must have been founded upon the rock foundation. But why is Peter the foundation, lied when truth is built upon him? Its contradictory. Secondly, the size difference of petros and petra makes petros (peter) not the rock foundation. Thirdly, Eph 2:19-20 testifies Jesus as the cornerstone foundation of the household of God or the church. Fourthly, Matt 16:18 upon this rock, I will build my is a relay message from God through Jesus. 
            • Repost:
            •  
            • Noticeably, as I observed through all of Winnie’s rebuttal against Soriano, there is always that lagging inadequacy of his arguments to sustain an infallible stand. As always and constant, there are undeniable big holes that weakens any reputable argument he wanted to impress. Let us see. I wanted to ask: Did you sufficiently explained John 12:49-50 that say, i have not spoken of myself but the father gave me what to speak, as something not literal? In the course of Jesus speech when he spoke out of his personal words, is the reality of relaying the father’s words impossibly be inserted to say you are peter and upon this rock i’ll build my church? Is there no context to affirm that Matt 16:18 is in reality the father’s words through the mouth of Jesus? 
            • Clearly, Winnie lacked the propensity to have disproven Soriano’s claim that there are personal words of Jesus and there are relay-messages through Jesus mouth that were the father’s words as John 12:49-50 categorically have guaranteed Winnie either failed to explain or refuted. Therefore it stands, John 12:49-50 is about Jesus relaying the personal words of God as a ground to believe Matt 16:18 is about the father’s personal words much so as context supported.
            • Firstly, the father is the master builder.
            • Hebrews 3:4

                [4]For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

                • Jesus role as always in the divine realm, is as a tool of God, an instrument whereas the credit is for God almighty such as in creation:

                Isaiah 44:24

                [24]Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

                John 1:3

                [3]All things were made THROUGH him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                •  As you can see, Jesus was an instrument in creating everything yet the credit of being the creator is for God alone as it say: I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. And as it say, everything, that as implied includes the church were made THROUGH Jesus and as the credit was for God regarding creation logically, the credit is still for him in regards to constructing the church validating the Soriano concept, that the building of the church was by God therefore it is consistent and plausible that Matt 16:18 I will build my church is a direct credit for God as the speaker through Jesus mouth.
              • Much so that Paul expressed the reality of Jesus, the cornerstone foundation, as the foundation of the household of god–the church– and the apostles and prophets.
              • Ephesians 2:19-20

                [19]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (the church)

                [20]And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets–WHO IS–, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

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