ANG KATOTOHANAN SA HISTORICAL JESUS RESURRECTION VS NHORDZ DIAMAL

  • ( My answers would be in this same format.)

NHORDZ DIAMAL SAID:

Refuting john shamoun,,
Ngaun gusto nyang patunayan na may historian  na si hesus nabuhay,,
Wala po syang naibgay  na matibay na proof,kung kaya nagsusuffer  sya dto pero may napulot syang isang #historian_kuno,
Ngaun ang historian na ito ay isang  hudio,,
So lets examined the word of his favorites  historian, ,
Kasi itong historian na ito ang kaisa isang historian  nya na matatawag kong PANGLIMANG  GOSPEL  ng kristyano, ,
So ilatag natin
Ito po ang pahayag ng historian na ito:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
( Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 h)



SO ESUSUMARIZE KO ANG PUNTO NG HISTORIAN  NYA
(1) Jesus is more than just a Human (god).

 (2) Miracles he performed. 

(3) His Ministry among Jews & Gentiles. 

(4) He is the Messiah. 

(5) He is condemned by the Jewish Priests. 

(6) Sentenced by Pilate.

 (7) He died on the Cross.

 (8) Came back to life on the third day. 

(9) He fulfilled the Divine Prophecy.
nakita nyo ang comments ng isang jews na historian kuno??
Maniniwala  ba kau na yang 9 points na yan ay sasabihin ng hudio??
The common sense refute us
THE ANSWER IS NO,
#salita_ng_kristyano_yan_hindi_hudio
Now lets see,anu ang sabi ng mga scholars dto

But look at the point 9 jesus according  to supposed word of josephus,,jesus fullfilled the prophecies in old testament, ,but yet josepgus did not believe  jesus is the christ,,
(
Paragaph 8 and 9)
He did not accept Jesus as Christ” 
(((Vol. IX, Origen on Matthew, Origen’s Commentary on Matthew, Book X by Origen, translated by John Patrick Chapter 17 – http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_IX/Origen_on_Matthew/Origen%27s_Commentary_on_Matthew/Book_X/Chapter_17 ])))))

SEE how the christian  distort the word  of josephus???

  • (see?  Though some claimed na corrupted text yan. The point is, nhordz has no evidence to disprove resurrection either. Josephus referring to Jesus as Messiah or christ e proof na corrupted ito as jews dont consider him as christ at para sabihing nabuhay siya sa third day as fulfillment of the prophecies e false din kasi walang prophecy na ganon. Gayunpaman, kahit walang clear historical proof of jesus resurrection, is not proof na walang resurrection of Jesus. The thing is, halos lahat ng scholars have a general consensus na yung part sa josephus account na pinatay si hesus e true. 
  • Wikipedia says:
  • Of the three passages found in Josephus’ Antiquities, this passage, if authentic, would offer the most direct support for the crucifixion of Jesus. The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to interpolation.[5][6][7][8][10] James Dunn states that there is “broad consensus” among scholars regarding the nature of an authentic reference to Jesus in the Testimonium and what the passage would look like without the interpolations.[9]
  • Moreover, nhordz said:


    According to the scholars


    Leonhard Goppelt writes:
    “Ant. 20.9.1 reported briefly that ‘a man James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ,’ was executed. This could have been genuine. In contrast, however, ANT 18.3.3 #WAS_SURELY_INTERPOLATED: ‘About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.’ To what extent the interpolator used Josephus text as a source #CANNOT_BE_DETERMINED. The places that mentioned Jesus in the Slavic text of the War are inauthentic.
    ( The Ministry of Jesus in Its Theological Significance By Leonhard Goppelt Volume 1 [Copy Right 1981] page 18 – 19


    Professor Oskar Holtzmann who is a Christian:,
    #THUS_tHE_PASSAGE_ATTRIBUTED_tO #JOSEPHUS_iS_UNQUESTIONABLY_SPURIOUS. And as there no inherent contradictions discernible in it, it would be a piece of pure arbitrariness to #ATTEMPT_TO_PICK_OUT_GENUINE_KERNEL #fROM_WAS_IS_AS_A_WHOLE_SPURIOUS.
    ((( The life of Jesus (1904) Professor Oskar Holtzmann D.D. Translated by J.t. Bealby, B.A. And Maurice A. Canney, M.A. [London Adam and Charles Black 1904] page 15 – 16))

    SEE,,

    SO as we have seen ang pinka malakas na proof ng  kristyano sa paniniwala  nila  liban sa bible ay isang fabricated  na historian, ,inamin mismo ng kapwa nila  kristyano :

    So again my argument stll stand 
    Anyway kung ang historian ay kayang  edistort   ng kristyano  noon,bible pa kaya????

    • ( Kung ang history about Jesus resurrection is distorted by who-knows-who kahit walang proof to validate who-distort-which, bible pa kaya di madistort? Iyan ang paduda niya. Parang sinabi niya basta true christian nandidistort yan. So kung christian e me evil heart to distort, muslim kaya e walang evil heart to distort? Para niyang sinabi, meron din, di ba? Muslims with evil hearts distort quran is reality. Di ba merong corrupted quran? 
    • Wikipedia says: 
    • Puin, and his colleague Graf von Bothmer, have published only short essays on the ṢSana’a find. In a 1999 interview with Toby Lester, the executive editor of The Atlantic Monthly website, Puin described the preserved fragments by the following:

      Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam’s first two centuries—they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What’s more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.[citation needed]

      In another interview, Puin said:

      So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Quran is Allah’s unaltered word. They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Quran has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Quran has a history too. The Sana’a fragments will help us accomplish this.[4]

      Puin claimed that the Yemeni authorities want to keep work on the Ṣana’a manuscripts “low-profile”.[4]

      In 2000, The Guardian interviewed a number of academics for their responses to Puin’s remarks, including Dr Tarif Khalidi, and Professor Allen Jones, a lecturer in Koranic Studies at Oxford University. In regard to Puin’s claim that certain words and pronunciations in the Koran were not standardized until the ninth century, The Guardian reported:

      Jones admits there have been ‘trifling’ changes made to the Uthmanic recension. Khalidi says the traditional Muslim account of the Koran’s development is still more or less true. ‘I haven’t yet seen anything to radically alter my view,’ he says. [Jones] believes that the San’a Koran could just be a bad copy that was being used by people to whom the Uthmanic text had not reached yet. ‘It’s not inconceivable that after the promulgation of the Uthmanic text, it took a long time to filter down.’[22]

      • (So kung bad copy lang ang Sanaa Quran, then it proves, merong distortion sa quran, much like the bible, me bad copy at good copy.)

      Indeed, the bible speak for itself 
      For example:
      John 20:19

      Matapos iwanan ng mga apostle si hesus ay nagtago  sila dahil sa takot sa jews hanggang sa dumating ang time na si hesus ay nabuhay na dw,,
      So ang tanong ay
      Kung andun sila sa pagkapako,
      Anung dahilan bakit pa sila nagtatago??
      Eh nakita  na nga sila ng jews sa panahon pagpako eh,
      So bkt pa sila nagtatago at natatakot kung di  naman sila dinamay ng  jews sa panahon  nandun sila pagpako? ????
      Hmmmmp interesting

      • ( Yes, Nagtatago sila dahil meron silang kinatatakutan pero si john e matapang at maaaring kinilos ng dios para pumunta sa crucifixion at doon inihabilin ni Jesus si maria. Hinde siya namukhaan ng mga hudyo at Romano dahil maaaring pinagmukha ng dios na si piolo pascual siya tulad ni allah, pinagmukha yung nakapako na kamukha ni jesus, kaya ganon din siguro si john, pinagmukhang si piolo pascual kaya hinde namukhaan ng kalaban pero namukhaan Nina maria. Kaya nandon si john bilang witness sa crucifixion. So bakit nga sila nagtatago? Dahil me kinatatakutan.
      • So nhordz, asan ang distortion in the bible?)

       Let  me answer it and  lets  debunk the christianity 
      KAYA SILA NAGTAGO KASI MASKIN SA PAGPAKO WALA NA SILA,,kasi natatkot silang madamay, ,,
      Proof?
      Si pedro sumunod nung hulihin si hesus,pero nung ituro ng mga tao na si pedro ay kasamahan ni hesus,,NAGDENY SYA NA KILALA NYA SI HESUS,,at sya ay umalis, ,
      Bakit umalis kasi NAKILALA SYA NUNG MGA TAO AT nangamba na madamay,,
      Kaya malabong may apostle sa panahon ng pagkapako  kay hesus kasi  kung andun sila,siguradong damay damay silang lahat dahil ituturo sila ng tao,,
      Kaya un ang dahilan kaya sila nagtago sa john 20:19,,,
      SO SINU ANG SUMULAT NG GOSPELS KUNG WALA DUN  ANG APOSTLE??

      •  (REPOST: Yes, Nagtatago sila dahil meron silang kinatatakutan pero si john e matapang at maaaring kinilos ng dios para pumunta sa crucifixion at doon inihabilin ni Jesus si maria. Hinde siya namukhaan ng mga hudyo at Romano dahil maaaring pinagmukha ng dios na si piolo pascual siya tulad ni allah, pinagmukha yung nakapako na kamukha ni jesus, kaya ganon din siguro si john, pinagmukhang si piolo pascual kaya hinde namukhaan ng kalaban pero namukhaan Nina maria. Kaya nandon si john bilang witness sa crucifixion. So bakit nga sila nagtatago? Dahil me kinatatakutan.
      • So nhordz, asan ang distortion in the bible?)

      The christian scholar said:

      The fact that all four gospels of the New Testament are anonymous.
      ( [1]Ehrman, Bart D. Lost Christianities. p. 3, 235. Also, see Ehrman, Bart D. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. p. 49.)
      _________________
      The Gospel according to . . .’) were not part of the original manuscripts, for they were added only early in the second century

      (Stanton, Graham N. p. 19.)
      ______________

      It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS [manuscript] tradition is wholly uniform.
      ((((Buttrick, George Arthur (Ed.). 1962 (1996 Print). The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible. Volume 4. Nashville: Abingdon Press. pp. 594–595 (Under Text, NT).))))
      https://m.facebook.com/groups/295077884021510?view=permalink&id=619689898226972

      • (True. There is no known authors of the four gospel pero hinde proof yan, na hinde sa dios ito kasi tinawag itong parts ng writing of god as it say:
      • ISAIAH34:16 Seek ye out of the “writing of the lord” and read, none of it shall fail, none want an additional one….his spirit it hath gathered “them” (the many writings as one).
      • Historically, me isang set ng manuscripts as source of the true bible. These manuscripts as collective one writing after textual criticism was beforehand gathered and called the writing of god in Isaiah 34:16.
      • True also that the greek text has no headings like “gospel according to John or Mark…etc” pero it doesn’t prove that these gospel manuscripts are not part of the writing of god as the verse implied above. Parte yan ng writing of god na collected or gathered as one collective writing called writing of the lord so reliable ito kasi writing of god nga.
      • Isaiah 34:16 seek from the SEPHER (writing) of the lord…none of it wants her REUTH (additional one)…his spirit it has gathered them (manuscripts)
      • Ngayon, sa alin nangyari yan? Aling writing ANG considered divine scripture, complete at di nangangailangan ng additional religious writing na it was gathered as one collective writing from gathered manuscripts?
      • Bible lang yan Nhordz G Diamal proving the bible as writing of god.
      • To say, there is not one sentence in the NT manuscripts that is not wholly uniform is probably true, pero naniniwala ako that it conveys a harmonious message. Those manuscript text as product of textual criticism have a harmonious message, its contextual message is consistent kahit hinde consistent yung textual structure nito.
      • Lastly,

        • Ngayon, maaaring walang certain historical proof to back up Jesus resurrection pero still, maraming historical proof na nagpapakitang namatay siya, which is totally, nakakasira sa islam na naniniwalang hinde namatay si Jesus. 
        • Historians or islam? 
        • Wikipedia says:
        • Of the three passages found in Josephus’ Antiquities, this passage, if authentic, would offer the most direct support for the crucifixion of Jesus. The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to interpolation.[5]
        • One of such historian is Tacitus:
        • Wikipedia says:
        • The Annals passage (15.44), which has been subjected to much scholarly analysis, follows a description of the six-day Great Fire of Rome that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD.[3]

          The key part of the passage reads as follows (translation from Latin by A. J. Church and W. J. Brodribb, 1876):

          Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

        • The talmud. The jews, na anti-christian, e naniniwala dito as written in the talmud:
        • (There are probably others but the historicity of Jesus death is undeniable debunking islam.
        • Historians and bible or Islam?
        • The first two is credible.
        • So kahit hinde mapapatunayan historically ang Jesus resurrection, hinde naman maikakaila na irrefutable ANG historical Jesus death account. Nakakasama pa rin sa Islam.
        • So nhordz, aling parte ng bible ang distorted at aling parts ng historian account of Jesus death ang Mali? At bakit?
        • Let’s give time for nhordz diamal to answer. )
        • Heto sagot niya:


        These realities, the historical and archaeological collection of old and new testament as one canonical book or writing or document as the source of the true bible is the fulfillment of what god foretold years before, as he said in the following verses below:

        Isaiah 34:16

        [16]Seek ye out of the SEPHER (writing or document) of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want an additional one: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them (the many writings–manuscripts)

        As we can see the SEPHER of god, a singular writing, was a collection of gathered writings, implying manuscripts as it say,

        AND HIS SPIRIT IT HAS GATHERED THEM
        that is realized when the biblical manuscripts were gathered, as one SEPHER (writing) through the process of canonization. 

        Isaiah 34:16 seek from the SEPHER (writing) of the lord…none of it wants her REUTH (additional one)…his spirit it has gathered them (manuscripts)

        To which scripture gathered was that referring to, having no need of additional religious truth, and its manuscripts gathered as one collective writing called the writing of god?

        The bible only.

        This is as a fulfillment of his prophecy in ISAIAH 34:16 which prophecy has been supported by other promises such as:

         

        Psalms 102:12,18

        [12]But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

        [18]This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
        Psalms 45:17

        [17]I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.

        Likewise,

        Psalms 33:11

        [11]The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

        Logically, by these promises, that god would be remembered unto all generation through written scriptures and his counsel meant to all generation, certifies no other way, than through the collection of relevant manuscripts of divine origin testifying of himself, which collection has historically been realized when the bible materialized as one writing as fulfillment of isaiah 34:16, the gathering of various writings as one sepher or one writing….
        There was no other historical records when divine scriptures were gathered as one sepher but only the bible that was meant to glorify god in all generation which glorification we are seeing now through the bible.

        IT PROVES THE PROPHECIES CORRECT THEREFORE PROVING THE BIBLE AS TRUE.

        There was no other written scriptures from the time of jesus to the present that was meant for the remembrance of god through all generation than the bible. These fact, the fulfillment of the collection of the bible as means, by way of its written text, for god to be remembered and praised through all generation, WHICH BY ITS FULFILLMENT, is an assurance of the divine and authoritative power of the bible as reliable source of divine truth,

        Why?

        The fulfillment of the prophecy proves the divine truthfulness of the bible, bec such miracle cannot be disregarded as unreliable bec it was supernatural. It testifies of one thing, the god that promised those speaks truthfully, as we can see the fulfillment of the prophecy. There is one considered as divine scripture gathered for glorifying god that dont need an additional one, implying, an additional religious book. This divine scripture gathered as historically supported is the bible. No choice. Its the only fulfillment. This in regards verifying the bible as truth, the fulfillment of the prophecies verify the bible as THE SEPHER OF THE LORD, therefore a book of truth, rationally, putting the bible as true information, thereby attesting to the veracity of its contents such as jesus death and rising from the dead, likewise attesting the veracity of its gospel writers and basically all bible writers and the bible as a whole.

        How come?

        THE FULFILLMENT OF THE PROPHECY SUGGESTS AN ADVANCE MIND. AN ADVANCE MIND IS A TESTAMENT OF GOD’S EXISTENCE. THEREFORE GOD IS SAYING, THROUGH THE FULFILLMENT OF THE PROPHECY, THAT THE BIBLE IS THE WRITING OF GOD AND BEC THE BIBLE IS THE WRITING OF GOD THEREFORE IN ESSENCE IS RELIABLE, A BOOK OF TRUTH.

        Thus, we can safely say, Jesus death and rising from the dead is reality beyond the shadow of the doubt.Thats proof supporting the historical death and resurrection of Jesus. Clearly, the miraculous fulfillment of the prophecy validates the bible as truthful that’s why everything it say such as the death and resurrection of Christ is reality. Much so, all other prophecies were validated through historical fulfillment. Taking all these fulfilled prophecies as an advance mind proves that God speaking this is truthful, validating the bible as indeed the writing of god–a book of truth.

        • (Proof yan supporting the historical death of Jesus. Clearly, the miraculous fulfillment of the prophecy validates the bible as truthful kaya lahat ng sinasabi nito tulad ng death and resurrection of Jesus ay reality.)

        .

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