​REFUTING JOE VENTILLACION`S CLAIM THAT THE WORD IS SIMPLY AN IDEA

Joe Ventillacion, A scholar of the INC, claims that Jesus was simply an idea of god, A plan, before he become man. He was not an entity or a being but only an idea in the mind of god.

He used this verse:

1PETER1:20 WHO VERILY WAS FOREKNOWN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

Joe Ventillacion then suggested a translation for John1:1,14 as illustrated below.

JOHN 1:1,14 in the beginning was the IDEA, and the IDEA was with god, and the IDEA was divine…and the IDEA become flesh…

there are three things though that falsify this concept.

JESUS WAS AN ENTITY OR BEING WHEN HE WAS THE WORD.

  • PHIL 2:6 who being in the “morphe” of god, thought it not robbery to be equal with god, but made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men..

As we can see, before he took upon him the form of man, he was already in the “morphe” of god.

Morphe” is shape as defined in the strongs numbers.

Meaning, Jesus was already in the shape of god before he become man. Having a shape, suggests it is not a mere idea, as an idea is without shape. Jesus as the word, has the shape of god.

It suggests, that God too has a shape, and Jesus having the shape of god implies that they, both, have the same shape, same bodily constitution.

Why?

BEC god`s bodily constitution, in every aspect, is the shape of god. If god has a brain or blood cells, the shape of these is also the same with Jesus, same way, with all aspect of god`s constitution therefore Jesus having that shape means that Jesus has equal bodily constitution as god.

God is a spirit therefore his shape and bodily constitution is spirit

Jesus having the shape of god, means he has the shape of the spirit who is god. Therefore jesus as the word, was a spirit.

AN IDEA HAS NO SHAPE

JESUS AS THE WORD HAS A LITERAL SHAPE
They are different. Thus the word is not mere idea.They might argue and say, shape of god is the image of god which is figuratively speaking of righteousness though unbiblical, there is no proof that shape is synonymous to image. 

WHAT JOE DID WAS DISCARD MORPHE AS SHAPE, AND REPLACED IT WITH FORM AND QUOTES A DICTIONARY that MORPHE (FORM) is synonymous to eikon (image) thus making MORPHE which is supposed to be shape as FORM or image, thus putting it as a figurative form, which form is image, which is interpreted as righteousness.

The question is,

WHY CHOOSE FORM THAN SHAPE?

Joe assumed god has no shape BEC he is a spirit thus it has no physical shape.

JOE, MAY I ASK, WHERE DID GOD SAID, THAT SHAPE REFERS ONLY TO PHYSICAL SHAPE?
Nowhere.

Spirits has shape therefore as suggested by MORPHE ( shape.)
Joe said:

Inyong narinig ang tinig ngunit wala kayong nakitang anyo,”
Anyo o form yan, meaning, spirits have no form. In what sense?

THE EARTH ALSO HAS NO FORM YET IT HAS MASS.

GEN1:1-2 GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. NOW THE EARTH WAS FORMLESS…

the earth was made but yet FORMLESS.

JER4:23 I BEHELD THE EARTH (Jerusalem) AND LO IT WAS WITHOUT FORM AND VOID…

as we can see, things that have form could be considered without form In what sense? THE EARTH has MASS but no form. What does it mean? Logically, it has not yet the intended form, the god planned form…But it has its initial form….bec it has mass. THE one that Israel HEARD but could not see his form Was an angel, A spirit. It has his form an invisible form but has not manifested in visible form

Why is that?

BEC of the concept that, something with form sometimes is considered as FORMLESS or without form. Thus conclusively, we cannot say, that spirits has no literal form. BEC in reality, god has MORPHE or shape.

If morphe is shape, then it DISPROVES Joe’s claim that PHIL 2:6 speaks of FORM or image of god which is RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Why do we believe MORPHE is shape?
BEC Jesus as word was already a thinking talking being.

HEB10:5 WHEN HE COME INTO THE WORLD HE (THE WORD) SAID…A BODY (Jesus body) THOU HAS PREPARED FOR ME (word)

Some say that prepared human body was mary as a conception host for Jesus. Does it matter? When the the one coming from heaven was cognitive and talking. It was the one from heaven that talked. It was not the human body bec it was not the one that came from heaven. If the word was a thinking, talking being, then he is a person, and being BEGOTTEN by god means literally born in the manner wherein a spirit gives birth to a spirit, thus having the same nature, implies they have both the same MORPHE (shape).
AND BEC GOD WAS SEEN SITTING ON A LITERAL THRONE…

2 Chronicles 18:18

[18]Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

That is literal sitting on the literal throne as the heavenly creatures, are literally standing, meaning, they have a perceived shapes, on that actual view of reality. Only those with shape can literally sits.
THUS, GOD HAS SHAPE.
Joe said, that the form or image of god is “kabanalan” or HOLINESS.

“Tama, ang dios ay walang pisikal na anyo, pero may katangian ang dios na sentidong ito niya kalarawan ang tao at ang ating panginoong JesuCristo…sa pagiging banal kalarawan ng dios ang tao at ang ating panginoong jesucristo…

So if HOLINESS is the form or image of god, Man, having that form or image means, he is in the form of god.

HOW IS MAN HOLY?

JOHN17:17 SANCTIFY (make holy) THEM THROUGH THY TRUTH. THY WORD IS TRUTH.

to be holy is by the truth, meaning, by submitting to the truth, obeying it, you become holy thus it is necessary of works, the works of righteousness.

1PET1:22 SEEING YOU HAVE PURIFIED YOURSELVES IN OBEYING THE TRUTH…

HOLINESS THEREFORE AS A FORM OF GOD, IS INSEPARABLE OF WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. THUS THE FORM OF GOD, IS NECESSARY OF WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS  AN IDEA HAS NO WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THUS ITS NOT IN THE  FORM OF GOD

Thus it was not the word…
Taking from joes perspective…!

Therefore FORM of god is not literal.  It is to be holy  by the  truth by works  of righteousness. SOME INC SAY, THE FORM OF GOD IS RIGHTEOUSNESS, joe likewise. Joe implied that the image of god is righteousness and holiness…

EFESO 4:21-24 AT ANG DAPAT MAKITA SA INYO AY ANG BAGONG PAGKATAO NA NILIKHANG KALARAWAN NG DIOS, KALARAWAN NG KANYANG  KATWIRAN AT KABANALAN.

What is righteousness?

IT GOES WITH ACT OF GOODNESS.

ISAIAH 32:17 AND THE WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL BE PEACE…

Therefore, taking from their idea, Jesus as the word having the shape of god, implies, he has righteousness of god, therefore, the word has righteousness which are necessary of work of righteousness such that of god.

RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NECESSARY OF ITS WORK

Bec how could we know what is right without the basis to know which is right–its work? Thus the RIGHTEOUSNESS of god which is the image or FORM of the word is not absent of its work…An idea has no work of righteousness therefore it is not the word. Jesus and man, having both the same image of god, therefore are holy and righteous, which holiness and righteousness is necessary of works.

ISAIAH 32:17 AND THE WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL BE PEACE…

Conclusively, MORPHE (form) of god, could either be literal FORM as implied by a more reliable definition of MORPHE which is shape or it could be figurative, as HOLINESS or righteousness. Either way, it refutes the concept of the word as mere idea. Firstly bec it has no literal form. Secondly bec it has no works of righteousness.
Clearly, this reality debunks the scholar`s concept.

  • . HEB 10:5 Wherefore when he come into the world, he said, sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, BUT A BODY THOU HAST PREPARED ME…

“A BODY (man) THOU HAST PREPARED ME (word)”

The word when he come to earth and before becoming man, speaks and talks, saying, A body you prepared for me. It suggests mental function. It suggests cognition. Therefore the word is not simply an idea, bec it has mental and cognitive function. An idea cannot think or talk. But they might say, the IDEA talking is a personification. It’s like a tree talking as figure of speech.

No. It cannot be. God is truthful. He cannot lie. Personification is a lie. It’s not truthful.

Why?

BEC saying a tree talks or an idea talks, is not true. It’s a lie. God cannot lie thus he don’t use personification in his words.

TITUS1:2 GOD CANNOT LIE

By this reality that the word talks refutes the concept that it is mere idea. An idea cannot talk. God used metaphor and metonymy in his words, as symbolism yet personification is assuming that the idea has talked to have said, even as personification, a body you prepared for me, when in reality he has no cognitive function. By that reality, it refutes Joe’s misguided rhetorics.

  •  REV19:11, 13 and I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse, AND HE THAT SAT UPON HIM WAS CALLED FAITHFUL AND TRUE…AND HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD

If the word is an idea, why is Jesus as an entity, called as the word of god, not a mere idea? This proves that being a word is not an idea bec the word is an entity, someone existing with life, as suggested, the word of god rides upon a white horse.

BOTH JOHN1:1 AND REV19:11,13 SPEAKS OF THE WORD OF GOD, YET ONE SAY, IT IS A LIVING ENTITY AND NOT AN IDEA.

It therefore concludes, that the word is a living person. As we can read, the word of god is a name of an entity thus the word in John1:1 is a name of an entity, A living person. It is not a mere idea.

THESE THREE POINTS, I BELIEVE FALSIFIES THE CONCEPT THAT THE WORD IS MERE IDEA OR PLAN.
How about their basis that Jesus was a mere idea in the mind of god, this idea was realized when Jesus was born?

Their basis:

1PETER1:20 WHO VERILY WAS FOREKNOWN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

true. Jesus as man, as a lamb for redemption, was foreknown by God before the reality happens. It doesn’t mean, Jesus has not pre-existed as a living person with god before becoming man? Indeed he has as suggested above, Jesus has the shape of god, Jesus as the word can talk…these sufficiently tell us that when god foreknown the coming function of Jesus as redeemer, Jesus was already a living entity with him.

Lastly,

I’ll address why joe believes  Jesus was not equal to god,

FIL 2:6 said Jesus is equal with god.

Joe said it’s wrong quoting this:

ISAIAH46:5, 9 TO WHOM WILL YE LIKEN ME AND MAKE ME EQUAL AND COMPARE ME THAT WE MAY BE LIKE…

Yes, noone is equal to god BUT THAT IS CONTEXTUALLY REFERRING TO IDOLS. NO IDOLS, WORSHIPPED AS GOD, CAN EQUAL GOD as stated below:

ISAIAH 40:18-21 TO WHOM WILL YOU THEN COMPARE GOD? WHAT IMAGE WILL YOU COMPARE HIM TO? AS FOR AN IDOL A CRAFTSMAN CAST IT…DO YOU NOT KNOW? HAVE YOU NOT HEARD?

It’s as though god is saying do you not know that an IDOL is made by a craftsman, to whom among idols will you liken me, they have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear, (as written in other verses)?

Or, it could be that, as a person, its function, is unique–the most high yet as god, jesus is equally god with him.
Why is that?
BEC JESUS WAS EQUAL TO GOD IN ASPECT OF NATURE.
WHY DID JESUS SAY, THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I?
GOD is a nature, the spirit as nature is what is called god.

Why?

GOD HAS A SHAPE. and part of the nature of god, is that, god has no function as a servant, logically speaking, Jesus lowering himself to a state of servant, reduced his equality as god. BUT SUCH EQUALITY WAS RESTORED AS JESUS SAID

JOHN17:5 GLORIFY me with the glory I have with you before the world was…

Likewise, power and authority, is a nature of god, they were equal as god but not in power and authority.  GOD almighty is the source of all things. Jesus was not. GOD is head over Jesus.

How so?

It is inherent that all MAN are equally man, and our functions as part of our nature are equally the same, our hands functions for grasping, our feet functions for walking, our mind for thinking. Our minds don’t function as our feet likewise god don’t function as servants, logically, speaking.

THOUGH POWER IS INHERENT A NATURE OF GOD ALMIGHTY It is not equal with Jesus, Thus when saying, they are equally god, they were also father and son, naturally, in essence having different power and authority, one as father, the other as SON So as a man and his children are equally man, but having different power and authority.

Equally man, in essence, of our bodily function, our mind has the same function, so is with our heart, eyes, hand etc.. though differently used. Some hands were used for killing others used for farming… yet as a hand, it has the same function, Our mind functions equally the same, that is equally to think, though our thinking, what we think is not equal

So likewise with god…

IN THAT ESSENCE OF POWER AND AUTHORITY, GOD almighty is greater than Jesus but as god, they are equally the same, as equally functional god.
Moreover, joe quoted this:

ISAIAH46:9 I AM GOD THERE IS NONE ELSE, I AM GOD THERE IS NONE LIKE ME

implying, that Jesus is not god bec there is none else, none like god.
Wrong. There is none else or none like god, only to Israel during mosaic era, as it say:

HOSEA 13:4 I AM THE LORD THY GOD FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT, THOU SHALT KNOW NO OTHER GOD BUT ME…

that is to Israel, noone else is WORSHIPPED as god none else is like god but that is in reference only for israel As they were commanded to recognize one god Its like saying, i am god, there is none else, there is none like me for israel, but when Jesus dispensation comes, he introduced himself as true god,

IN THE MORPHE (shape) OF GOD

implying, an equally functional nature-the nature of the true god.

©a®e

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